<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1386</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	11/23/99 9:43:09 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1386<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Revolutions (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
Re: Inevitability of government failure<BR>
SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: Superpowers<BR>
Re: Tourism in the Marches (much ado about Whanga)<BR>
RE: Gas Giants in close orbits<BR>
RE: Mass destruction<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
A GK of sorts - Trav fiction<BR>
Re: OT: Dogma<BR>
adventure just waiting for the writing...<BR>
Re: Vargr<BR>
Re: Which Traveller?<BR>
Re: Which Traveller? (uh-oh)<BR>
RE: Looking for Travellers' Digest Adventures 1-21<BR>
Re: Slavery<BR>
RE: Ine Givar<BR>
Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
Re: Mass destruction<BR>
Re: Mass destruction<BR>
Re: Mass destruction<BR>
Re: Which Traveller?<BR>
Vargr Charisma and Terror Weapons (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
Re: SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:30:40 -0800<BR>
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Revolutions (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
 <BR>
> One has a devil of a time fitting the American Revolution into the peasant<BR>
> revolt model, considering the fact that the closest thing we had to<BR>
> "peasants" in any traditional sense were the slaves.<BR>
<BR>
> One of the real problems with applying a Marxist class-based model to the<BR>
> French revolution is that classes, as such, didn't really exist in France.<BR>
> Class structures are "horizontal". The social structure of France was<BR>
> "vertical", or privilege based. Of course, a really proper Marxist<BR>
> revolution requires a degree of industrialization, which was really slow in<BR>
> coming in France.<BR>
<BR>
Marx referred to these as bourgeois revolutions.  They were the<BR>
revolutions that marked the transformation of European society from<BR>
agrarian/feudal to industrial/capitalist.  A class analysis still<BR>
applies, but the classes are the feudal classes -- basically the land<BR>
owners and the land workers, who split the production of the land<BR>
between themselves.  The classes in capitalist society are the owners of<BR>
the means of production and the wage-earning workers.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:03:42 -0800<BR>
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Inevitability of government failure<BR>
<BR>
> From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
> Subject: Re: Inetability of government failure<BR>
<BR>
> There are still governments that still excist from antiquety (Tonga,<BR>
> Thialand,<BR>
> Mouri tribes). Yet well designed systems have collapsed (Communism was<BR>
> really well set up, just porly managed).<BR>
<BR>
The communists didn't read Marx, or ignored what they'd read.  Marx said<BR>
that communism can't occur until the forces of production are maximized,<BR>
and that _the_ way that the forces of production will be maximized is<BR>
through capitalism.  The major communist revolutions took place in<BR>
agrarian, semi-feudal societies (Russia and China), not industrial,<BR>
capitalist societies.  The forces of production in Russia were<BR>
inadequate to maintain a communist society, so it collapsed, along with<BR>
its many client states (some of whom were mature, but not totally<BR>
maximized, industrial states, like East Germany). <BR>
 <BR>
China under Deng Xiaoping is trying to manage the process of<BR>
transformation from agrarian to industrial, from feudal to capitalist,<BR>
society.  A communist state and then a communist world (that will also<BR>
be a Chinese state and a Chinese world) are the long-term goals.  (Yes,<BR>
I've read too much of the Chung Kuo series, and studied too much Chinese<BR>
history in college and graduate school.)<BR>
<BR>
Marx never set a time line for the maximization of the forces of<BR>
production and the collapse of capitalism under the weight of its<BR>
internal contradictions.  The advent of interstellar travel and the<BR>
discovery of great new markets to conquer will extend the growth and<BR>
development of capitalism for a very long time.  <BR>
<BR>
The form of economic relations in the Far Future have a feudal gloss,<BR>
but are still capitalist relations.  In the Imperium at least, the means<BR>
of production are privately owned, non-owners are paid wages in return<BR>
for the fruits of their labor, and government exists to maintain the<BR>
status quo.  <BR>
<BR>
This sort of Marxist analysis suggests some questions.  What conditions<BR>
would indicate that the forces of production in the Imperium are being<BR>
maximized?  What internal contradictions are being experienced now,<BR>
compared to those described by Marx?  How much of a threat to the status<BR>
quo would an efficient communist or anarchist world be?  How much of a<BR>
threat would it be perceived to be?  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:17:27 +1100<BR>
From: "David Healey" <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:12:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
<Glenn><BR>
A superpower in contemporary times means a nation that<BR>
can effectively exert its will anywhere in the world<BR>
in a very short time, without any other power's<BR>
cooperation.  The United States is presently the only<BR>
nation with that capability.<BR>
</Glenn><BR>
<BR>
Please bear in mind I'm *not* on a Yank-bash here.<BR>
<BR>
Based on that definition alone, would the US really be a superpower ?  Could they have exerted their will in Kosovo or Kuwait without the co-operation of any other power ?  I submit that these are only military examples of exerting a nation's will, and that there are many other ways (cultural, economic, ideological to name a few) of doing so.  If your friends and enemies alike (of whatever nation or state) decide they don't like what you're doing, it ain't gonna get done, no matter who you are.<BR>
<BR>
<Glenn><BR>
Another key difference between the recent past and the<BR>
Far Future is that no one in the Far Future has a real<BR>
and immediate ability to destroy all life everywhere. <BR>
</Glenn><BR>
<BR>
I submit, sir, that no-one has ever seriously had the will or desire to do so on Earth.  I also submit that no-one has ever had the ability.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             !<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:51:04 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Tourism in the Marches (much ado about Whanga)<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry wrote :-<BR>
> Yeah, true. I suppose a planet is a pretty big place, even a measly <BR>
> size 6 one. I don't have the stomach to calculate how much "stuff"<BR>
> there would be after a few centuries of tourism, but it would be<BR>
> pretty manageable, sure.<BR>
<BR>
Ballpark figure : average 200 grams per person, per day of solids and<BR>
1.5L of liquid. The big volume in sewage is the water used to flush the<BR>
stuff away.<BR>
	The big problem is going to be with other trash, in terms of quantity.<BR>
Fusion torches really simplify waste disposal though, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> Terraforming the place with it is an interesting<BR>
> idea... (ski mount Crapmore!)<BR>
The sewage will be full of 'friendly' micro-organisms. Consider it a<BR>
'low-tech nanite' approach to terraforming - spray the stuff everywhere.<BR>
<BR>
> My only open question is that I wonder if the agricultural worlds of<BR>
> the Imperium notice the loss of biomass over time?<BR>
The only real problem, over the very long term (millenia, as planets are<BR>
BIG places) will be the loss of phosphorous from the biosphere. Enormous<BR>
reserves of nitrogen are in the atmosphere, and tectonically active<BR>
worlds will have carbonate-CO2 cycling. <BR>
	Phosphate containing rocks could be mined or imported. Again, fusion<BR>
torching makes material processing and purification relatively easy.<BR>
<BR>
> (On the other hand, Whangan<BR>
> potatoes would probably make a great crop off-planet... imagine crops that grow<BR>
> faster than the weeds.)<BR>
Or a great weapon. The local agricultural authorities (not to mention<BR>
environmental groups) would not allow such material off planet.<BR>
<BR>
> The normal solution would be to apply a selective herbicide, but wow, Whangan<BR>
> plants are remarkably adaptable to herbicides and you'll run out of herbicidal<BR>
> formulations pretty fast (say, in a decade or so).<BR>
Whangan plants are unlikely to use chlorophyll, if you're using<BR>
Leonard's (Weber's) idea (which raises the possibility of non-green<BR>
plant life ; what colour is Whanga's sun?).<BR>
	Target this molecule with a poison, as well as a number of other<BR>
metabolic steps in the local plant life. This should be relatively easy<BR>
with TL8-12 chemical and biochemical techniques. <BR>
	'Combination chemotherapy' will be irresistible for a few years until<BR>
you come up with some method of biological control (but without animal<BR>
life the latter option may be problematic).<BR>
<BR>
Pollination of imported plants is the big impediment to their use if<BR>
there aren't any useful local insects.<BR>
<BR>
> At any rate, the whole thig is just a handwave to explain why such an<BR>
> otherwise nice planet is being wasted on casinos and grav-ball stadia.<BR>
I think someone mentioned tax loopholes and other legal and cultural<BR>
wrinkles - the easiest handwave, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:36:18 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gas Giants in close orbits<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Monday, 22 November 1999 6:50 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Gas Giants in close orbits<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 11/22/99 6:08:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,<BR>
> kaleja@estarcion.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > Cue the "edit Solomani Rim to match reality" thread...<BR>
><BR>
> Not a chance :-).<BR>
><BR>
> Well I dont know, any idea which system in the Solomani Rim could be used<BR>
to represent Tau Bootes.<BR>
In any case I regularly use Skycatalogue 2000 when doing systems to get<BR>
details for companions, mean orbital distances between stars etc.<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:34:43 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Mass destruction<BR>
<BR>
Does the weapon need to accomplish the destruction of the world by itself?<BR>
On a typical Earthlike world with a liquid metallic core would not removing<BR>
a sizable chunk of the mantle result in a sudden reduction of pressure on<BR>
the core, the core then exploding outward thus completing the planets<BR>
destruction?<BR>
Its not the total energy required to destroy the planet, but the total<BR>
energy required to get the planet to destroy itself!<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:51:48 +0000<BR>
From: "Greg Aldridge" <Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery<BR>
<BR>
> With Traveller starship technology there's nothing special about mass<BR>
> drivers; using the ship's own engine for "deadfall" ordinance makes much<BR>
> more sense for bombarding city-sized targets, and smaller targets need<BR>
> guided ordinance, which might as well have its own engine.<BR>
> (A typical Traveller missile has ~200 km/s of delta-V, much higher than<BR>
> you could ever get out of a mass driver; and of course a starship can provide<BR>
> several km/s with a few minutes burn of its engines before dropping the<BR>
> rocks.)<BR>
<BR>
Just like the 'baddie' ships in "This Island Earth" which guided the<BR>
meteors to the target.<BR>
<BR>
Question: Why did a civilisation that had developed the "interociter"(sp?),<BR>
and shipboard weapons capable of destroying the inbound meteors, not have<BR>
an effective planetary defence system around Metaluna?<BR>
<BR>
Apologies for the late post, I'm just catching up with my mail from the<BR>
weekend.<BR>
<BR>
Greg.<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
     Greg Aldridge      | "Since light travels faster than sound, isn't<BR>
   Software Engineer,   | that why some people appear bright until you<BR>
   EASAMS Engineering   |              hear them speak?"<BR>
        Systems         |<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
   Email: Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com    Tel: 01245 353221 x4437<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
IMTU tc tm tn t4+ tg ru+ ge(+) 3i+ c+ jt au- ls+ pi ta-- he as vi sy+ so<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:11:53 -0000<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: A GK of sorts - Trav fiction<BR>
<BR>
A while ago someone posted to this list a query that came from someone at<BR>
Baen books. I can't find that post now, which is a shame, because I need to.<BR>
<BR>
Not only that but I need to talk off-list to anyone who has any sort of<BR>
connections with publishing houses, TV studios, production companies etc.<BR>
Urgently.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for any help.<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:33:43 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Dogma<BR>
<BR>
>Go see this movie.  It's wonderfully funny, and makes you think about<BR>
>religion and God as seperate subjects.  Alanis Morissette plays God and<BR>
>pulls it off beautifully.<BR>
<BR>
Just what we need, a whiny Canadian singer as the Supreme Being. I'd<BR>
rather have George Burns. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:37:30 -0600<BR>
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com><BR>
Subject: adventure just waiting for the writing...<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sea.freedomship.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
right in the neighborhood of 30 million cbm = what, about a 2.1m ton Trav<BR>
ship?<BR>
170 x 3700 hp diesel engines. (471 megawatts) [100 for propulsion, 70 for<BR>
ship power]<BR>
115,000 maximum passengers.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have the wet navy rules - anyone care to calculate how good their<BR>
figures are according to CT canon?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:39:06 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr<BR>
<BR>
>>>Interesting thoughts. I've played them more like a<BR>
>wolf pack, with a<BR>
>strong leader having to show off his strength to the<BR>
>others.>><BR>
><BR>
>Like the Klingons, you mean? (I always wondered if MM<BR>
>ripped them off ST...)<BR>
<BR>
I doubt it. At the time Traveller first came out, the only<BR>
Klingons we'd seen on ST were in a few TV episodes. The aspects<BR>
of Klingons that would be reminiscent of the Vargr didn't evolve<BR>
until TNG and DS9, by which time the Vargr were already out there...<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of Vargr, one running gag in my Traveller campaign is that<BR>
the Vargr engineer, an NPC, likes to stick his head out the window<BR>
of the team's air-raft -- mostly to bug the team leader, who invariably<BR>
responds with an annoyed "Stop that!"... <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:37:02 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Which Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tim MacPherson" <timac@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Which Traveller?<BR>
><BR>
>I am looking to pick up a starter set of Traveller. I used to have Traveller<BR>
>Classic ...yeeeears ago. Now there is all kinds of editions. I don't have a<BR>
>group ...so if I did play it would most likely be by PBEM. CT? GURPS? T:NE? T4?<BR>
<BR>
  Either wait for T5 (6-8 months?) or get GURPS: Traveller, 2nd ed.; the<BR>
best way is mail-order from either: www.imphobbies.com or www.sentrybox.com<BR>
 - both avoid customs handling charges, and the latter avoids PST, being in<BR>
Alberta. If you go with OOP/used systems, try www.titangames.com, downport (?),<BR>
or Mr. Miller's page - he has lots of neat stuff that you won't find elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:39:37 -0500<BR>
From: "C Michael" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Which Traveller? (uh-oh)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Tim MacPherson <timac@home.com><BR>
><BR>
> Help a newbie (sorta)<BR>
<BR>
Um... too late!  Somebody should have warned you before you asked that in<BR>
open forum.  Now you have rekindled the wildfire that is "the version<BR>
question".  By the time it is over you will have more information than you<BR>
ever wanted and the entire list will have reached critical mass. <sigh><BR>
Well, I guess I'll start things off: I suggest you get a copy of the T5<BR>
playtest material and fiddle with that until the full version comes out next<BR>
year. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -Crusty<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(<plug>Note to list:  considering the fact that I run an OOP Traveller<BR>
online store, I think that I showed great restraint by not suggesting that<BR>
he run right over to The Traveller Trader http://www.downport.com/ttt/ and<BR>
snatch up one of the two boxed sets of MT that I have listed, especially<BR>
since I am still running the 15% discount to list members until the end of<BR>
the month.</plug>)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:35:48 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Looking for Travellers' Digest Adventures 1-21<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
> Josh W. Spencer wrote<BR>
> > I am interested in obtaining copies of all the adventures in<BR>
> > the Travellers' Digest involving Akidda Laagir, Dur Telemon,<BR>
> > Dr. Theodor Krenstein, and Aybee Wan Owen. It'll be for research<BR>
> > into their characters and how they changed over the years they<BR>
> > "toured" together, but also for two other purposes:<BR>
> > 1) Putting up a web page devoted to these characters, and<BR>
> > 2) I have an idea for getting these people together again for a<BR>
> > second "tour."<BR>
><BR>
> There is a DGP publication entitled something like 'the early <BR>
> adventures' which has all the original Traveller's Digest<BR>
> adventures in, and doesn't seem to be that expensive 2nd hand.<BR>
<BR>
Been away for a few days so this is coming a bit late ...<BR>
<BR>
"The  Early  Adventures"  does  *not*  contain  all  the   Digest<BR>
adventures.  What happened was that when Digest  started  it  was<BR>
the CT era.  Then MT came out and so  DGP  published  "The  Early<BR>
Adventures" which included the characters and  the  first  *four*<BR>
adventures converted into MT stats.  (It  was  also  in  8.5 x 11<BR>
inch format rather than LBB-size format.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
"!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:55:06 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> > Chattel slavery, 'people as property' is<BR>
> > specifically outlawed as an<BR>
> > Imperial Crime. Curiously, this does not seem to<BR>
> > include indentured<BR>
> > servitude.<BR>
> Of course not. Otherwise, mortgages would be<BR>
> prohibited. I am not joking here. You are legally<BR>
> forced to work for the bank if capable. How does that<BR>
> differ from a farmer in India? All that differs is<BR>
> that it's necessary for the Indian to do it, or<BR>
> starve, whereas for us it's just a case of wanting<BR>
> things... we're still indentured, though.<BR>
<BR>
You must have a particularly nasty mortgage...mine allows me to work<BR>
anywhere I please, or not work, even. So long as I can come up with the<BR>
payment each month. <BR>
<BR>
I am also entirely free to sell my house and pay off the mortgage if I<BR>
so desire. <BR>
<BR>
I can rent the house out and live somewhere else.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, I can even NOT pay the mortgage, and all that will happen is that<BR>
the bank will take back the house _they_ paid for. I will not be hunted<BR>
down, arrested, and forced back to my job paying the mortgage.<BR>
<BR>
A loan isn't indenture by any stretch of the imagination.<BR>
<BR>
If the bank said I had to keep working at Eneri's Widget Works until the<BR>
mortgage was paid off, and directly attached my earnings, _then_ I'd be<BR>
indentured.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:53:01 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ine Givar<BR>
<BR>
Steve Emsley wrote:<BR>
> I play predominantly CT, but I have a copy of T4 (but none of<BR>
> the intervening materials, so forgive me if this is a dumb<BR>
> question), and would like a large, organised terrorist group as<BR>
> the major bad guy in my campaign.  In a few places on the net,<BR>
> and on the list I've heard of the Ine Givar, but can't find any<BR>
> canonical references, nor any great detail from the sources I<BR>
> have read of them (superb terrorist organisation so far...lol).<BR>
<BR>
Been away for a few days so this is coming a bit late ...<BR>
<BR>
At the risk of starting a debate about what is and  isn't  canon,<BR>
there are GDW references to the Ine Givar:  some  Traveller  News<BR>
Service stories in JTAS prior to the 5FW, and  inclusion  of  Ine<BR>
Givar guerrilla units in the 5FW boardgame.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, as  already  mentioned  in  other  replies,  Andrew<BR>
Moffatt-Vallance wrote a detailed look at the  Ine Givar  history<BR>
and scope which was first posted to the TML  and  then  became  a<BR>
published article in SJG's Pyramid magazine (I haven't  seen  the<BR>
latter 'cos I'm not a Pyramid  member).  While  I  enjoyed  AMV's<BR>
write-up my interpretation of the Ine Givar for MTU limited their<BR>
sphere of influence to the coreward half of the Spinward Marches.<BR>
Is the Pyramid article 'canon'?  Probable depends on how you view<BR>
GT material in general.  Remember IYTU YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
"!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:03:56 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> I don't think so. And even if they did, I can think of several means<BR>
> of getting the same effect *without* explosives.<BR>
<BR>
Wouldn't dropping it from a higher height down the pipe get the same<BR>
effect as blasting the pieces together?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:10:18 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Mass destruction<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
> Does the weapon need to accomplish the destruction of the world by<BR>
> itself?<BR>
<BR>
Certainly not. A dinosaur-killer rock would probably accomplish the feat<BR>
you desired (unless you *really* wanted to remove the whole thing in<BR>
order to get a better view or something).<BR>
<BR>
> On a typical Earthlike world with a liquid metallic core would not<BR>
> removing a sizable chunk of the mantle result in a sudden reduction of<BR>
> pressure on the core, the core then exploding outward thus completing<BR>
> the planets destruction?<BR>
<BR>
The liquid mass would travel upwards and solidify. This is what happens<BR>
constantly when the tectonic plates are moving away from each other.<BR>
Thankfully, this doesn't destroy the Earth :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Its not the total energy required to destroy the planet, but the total<BR>
> energy required to get the planet to destroy itself!<BR>
<BR>
Agreed. Blasting the thing away would be pretty hard. A better solution<BR>
(depending on why exactly you want to remove the planet) would be to<BR>
destroy all life on it (big rock) or nuking it until it glows (if you<BR>
want to prevent someone from ever using it again, perhaps for strategic<BR>
reasons).<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:08:56 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mass destruction<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant writes:<BR>
> Kyle writes back:<BR>
> well, what about these nuclear damlers everybody ius<BR>
> so enamoured of? Since radiactive decay in the earth's<BR>
> mantle provides much fo the energy that keeps the core<BR>
> molten, couldn't a humongous damper accelerate this,<BR>
> not actually blowing the planet apart, but causing the<BR>
> entire surface to become molten lava?<BR>
<BR>
Hm...I'm not sure what the total quantity of radioactives in the earth's core is, I'm not sure its sufficient to blow the planet apart, but its probably enough to melt the planet (which is orders of magnitude easier).  A 'fusion catalyst' is probably a ranged high power nuclear damper also.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:12:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mass destruction<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell writes:<BR>
> Does the weapon need to accomplish the destruction of the world by itself?<BR>
> On a typical Earthlike world with a liquid metallic core would not removing<BR>
> a sizable chunk of the mantle result in a sudden reduction of pressure on<BR>
> the core, the core then exploding outward thus completing the planets<BR>
> destruction?<BR>
<BR>
No.  It would result in a sizeable release of energy as the rest of the planet settled inward, squeezing mantle material into the area to fill the hole, but that's pure gravitational energy caused by the shrinking of the planet.  In any case, making a hole large enough to severely disrupt the surface of the planet isn't easier than melting the surface of the planet.<BR>
<BR>
> Its not the total energy required to destroy the planet, but the total<BR>
> energy required to get the planet to destroy itself!<BR>
Planets are generally stable, and aren't capable of destroying themselves.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:06:15 +0000<BR>
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Which Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
>>From: "Tim MacPherson" <timac@home.com><BR>
>>Subject: Which Traveller?<BR>
>><BR>
>>I am looking to pick up a starter set of Traveller. I used to have Traveller<BR>
>>Classic ...yeeeears ago. Now there is all kinds of editions. I don't have a<BR>
>>group ...so if I did play it would most likely be by PBEM. CT? GURPS? T:NE? T4?<BR>
><BR>
>  Either wait for T5 (6-8 months?) or get GURPS: Traveller, 2nd ed.; the<BR>
>best way is mail-order from either: www.imphobbies.com or www.sentrybox.com<BR>
> - both avoid customs handling charges, and the latter avoids PST, being in<BR>
>Alberta. If you go with OOP/used systems, try www.titangames.com, downport (?),<BR>
>or Mr. Miller's page - he has lots of neat stuff that you won't find elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
www.levalet.com is also in Canada. And MT is the one true version, heathen.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:24:22 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Vargr Charisma and Terror Weapons (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:01 PM 11/22/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
><BR>
>>        I would disagree with your assessment.  The Vargr are driven by a<BR>
>>requirement to boost thier own standing with other Vargr (thier Charisma).<BR>
>>*Any* idiot pink-stink can drop a rock on a world and say "Gimme money or<BR>
>>I'll do it again"....  that isn't going to do *anything* for one's<BR>
>>Charisma...  no bravery, no bold action, no fears faced nose-on....<BR>
><BR>
>By the same token though, any idiot pink-stink can, say, point a gun, or do<BR>
>whatever might be required in their raiding operations. I didn't know that<BR>
>*specific* sorts of "heroic" actions were required for Vargr Charisma.<BR>
<BR>
        Its not like there is a list in AM:3.  However, one of the remarks<BR>
made is that Charisma is something that is hard to maintain because it is<BR>
something that is *personal*...  which is one of the reasons that the Vargr<BR>
are so factionalized from the Imperial POV.  So, I'd extrapolate from that<BR>
concept the idea that "push button warfare" is not nearly as good for<BR>
playing hero as "Cutlass in Paw" warfare.  To me, that's the essence of<BR>
Charisma...  having the guts to go somewhere and do something noteable *in<BR>
person*.  Don't be stupid, obviously, but we Terrans rarely toast the boys<BR>
in Bomber Command the way we talk about Buzz Burling or any other number of<BR>
fighter pilots....  one-on-one or one-vs-superior foe stories are always<BR>
more dramatic, romantic and heroic than "went there, got shot at, dropped<BR>
payload, got shot at, went home" stories<BR>
        (Note:  I am *not* belittling the Vets of WW2 Bomber Command...  I<BR>
have a great respect for them.  I *am* generalizing about pop-culture.<BR>
Please save flames for summer barbque's, I don't want them).<BR>
<BR>
>Besides,  I thought that the Aslan were supposed to be the honorable ones.<BR>
<BR>
        Honor and Charisma are two different concepts entirely.  They are<BR>
not mutually exclusive.  An Aslan might find Honor in a particular Vargr,<BR>
just as a Vargr might find a particular Aslan Charismatic.<BR>
<BR>
>>        A planetary assault or a boarding of a high-port on a snatch and<BR>
>>grab, or a pack raiding an Imperial  convoy... now, that is a *whole*<BR>
>>different matter.  For Charisma to work, its *gotta* be up-close and<BR>
>>personal, and your friends have to survive to be impressed and brag you up<BR>
>>to thier friends.  That is why the Vargr seem so fragmented into such<BR>
>>dynamically composed groups;  individual quests for Charisma will conflict<BR>
>>in direction.<BR>
><BR>
>Again, I'm not sure I've come away from Traveller sources with the same idea<BR>
>of Vargr that you have. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that they're drooling<BR>
>evil nasties just waiting to drop rocks on any planet that they get the<BR>
>chance to drop rocks on, which has been one of the dangers I've become quite<BR>
>conscious of over the course of this discussion.<BR>
<BR>
        Fair enough.  I got the impression you were voting the Vargr race as<BR>
a whole to be in the #1 position for rock-dropping or other WOMD first-use.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, a big part of my understanding of Vargr comes from my research<BR>
>into the Sioux and the lower echelons of the New York mafia of the 70s (via<BR>
>the book Donnie Brasco).<BR>
<BR>
        I'll defer to you here, as I have read neither set of material.  I<BR>
am going entirely on my own impressions of AM:3.  However, I believe that<BR>
the Amerind (Apache,anyway) concept of "Counting Coup" is an example of one<BR>
of the sort of ideas that go into Charisma....  being personally there,<BR>
personally brave and personally victorious, even if its only in sneaking up<BR>
behind some Cavalry Lt. and tapping him on the shoulder before you<BR>
disappear...  you could do it, you *did* do it, and now your friends are<BR>
impressed by it. <BR>
<BR>
>>        Dropping a rock just says you can use a computer to do math.  Going<BR>
>>there, walking into the command post and announcing its "Tax Time" is a<BR>
>>whole different flair!<BR>
><BR>
>I agree, and I personally would follow the "tax time" guy myself ;)<BR>
><BR>
        <grin><BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:34:04 -0500<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC : UNCLASSIFIED - Re: Superpowers<BR>
<BR>
At 09:17 PM 11/23/1999 +1100, you wrote:<BR>
>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:12:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
><BR>
><Glenn><BR>
>A superpower in contemporary times means a nation that<BR>
>can effectively exert its will anywhere in the world<BR>
>in a very short time, without any other power's<BR>
>cooperation.  The United States is presently the only<BR>
>nation with that capability.<BR>
></Glenn><BR>
><BR>
>Please bear in mind I'm *not* on a Yank-bash here.<BR>
><BR>
>Based on that definition alone, would the US really be a superpower <BR>
>?  Could they have exerted their will in Kosovo or Kuwait without the <BR>
>co-operation of any other power ?  I submit that these are only military <BR>
>examples of exerting a nation's will, and that there are many other ways <BR>
>(cultural, economic, ideological to name a few) of doing so.  If your <BR>
>friends and enemies alike (of whatever nation or state) decide they don't <BR>
>like what you're doing, it ain't gonna get done, no matter who you are.<BR>
<BR>
Depending on the force mix, it could have been launched from the US (B-1, <BR>
B-2, B-52) or by Naval Aviation off of carriers in the Adriatic.  Not quite <BR>
as practical, but doable.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1386<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (rly-zc02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.2]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:43:08 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc02.mx.aol.com (v65.4) with ESMTP; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:42:46 1900<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA33590;<BR>
	Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:40:17 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:39:32 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA33532<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:39:32 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:39:32 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199911231739.MAA33532@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1386<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
